Recycled Idaho is back with more episodes of "Boots On The Ground". In this episode Nick gets a chance to really dive in to how Fox Heating and Cooling is helping Tonaquint keep their equipment cool so they can run a data center. Listen and follow along on Rev.com Here or play the youtube video and follow along with the text below.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to Recycled Idaho, where two recycling industry veterans, Brett Eckart, Nick Snyder, explore Idaho businesses and organizations. They're putting in the work to keep Idaho environmentally and economically viable at the same time. Take a listen to how these entrepreneurs, business owners and operators are making things happen in the great state of Idaho.
Nick Snyder:
It feels so good to be back with another Boots on the Ground. In this episode, I get a chance to walk around with Dennis Fox, owner of Fox Heating and Cooling, and VJ with Tonaquint Data Centers. I learned a lot about how important the [inaudible 00:00:42] process is for a successful data center, and how a data center really works. Enjoy the video.
Nick Snyder:
Welcome everybody, Nick here with another Boots on the Ground. It's been a while, but I'm excited to get back out here so everyone can see the real nuts and bolts of some of these industries, and how some of this recycling comes to be, but like what they do. I got VJ over here, with Tonaquint.
VJ:
How's it going?
Nick Snyder:
You guys will probably recognized Dennis from our sit down a few weeks ago.
Dennis:
Hi, everybody.
Nick Snyder:
And I'd like to just kind of hear about what we're doing, like what Tonaquint does.
VJ:
Yeah. So Tonaquint, we are a data center and cloud hosting company. What Dennis does for us is he does an AC HVAC units for us that brings in a the ton of cooling that keeps the data center nice and cold, so the servers stay nice and running and they don't get overheated and they crash or anything like that. So [inaudible 00:01:36] what a data center does is that it's a location where miscellaneous companies, industries, can house their data servers. And what that means is they can manage all their storage, their infrastructure, whatever it takes to run that company from a technical standpoint.
VJ:
When it comes to cloud hosting, what that means is that a lot of people hear the word iCloud or AWS, and those kinds of terms flying around. But what that really means for us here at Tonaquint is we do a cloud infrastructure as a service, regularly known as cloud IaaS. And what that means is that it's an option for companies to come in and we take care of all the hardware, we take care of all the power, all the cooling, all that stuff. And what the company itself has to do on their end is just manage their storage and their infrastructure. So we take away all the headache, and they just got to deal with what they want to do with it.
Nick Snyder:
So for instance, like iCloud, I have iCloud on my phone and we have a lot of Apple devices in my family. I use it for work, too, and a lot of this marketing stuff that I help with, my iCloud filled up super quick so I had to pay for more. I pay 10 bucks a month for 50 gigs.
VJ:
Yeah.
Nick Snyder:
So then I'm really, like that storage is really in a server room somewhere.
VJ:
Correct.
Nick Snyder:
That's how it works. Because I know a lot of people don't really know like where that stuff goes. It just goes up, it's like a magical thing. But there's just so much more to the whole deal.
VJ:
You're right. The cloud isn't some mystical thing that floats above us, it is actually hard servers that are located in different data centers, or like Apple has their own data centers all over the country and the world, that's backing up this information. And in the cloud, we call them VMs, which stands for virtual machine. And what that virtual machine is doing is, it's actually taking care of all our reproduction and duplication of what the storage is.
Nick Snyder:
And you hinted at this, but where the HVAC companies come in is where Dennis specializes in, a lot of these data centers.
Dennis:
Yeah. All those servers that make up the clouds generate all kinds of heat, right? I mean, they use a lot of power, and the power converts right on into heat. So a data center is very densely populated in a lot of cooling needs. So when it comes to cooling the servers, they have definitely requirements, not only keeping cool, but the humidity needs to be at the right levels, too. So the heating and air conditioning side of the house is pretty big.
Dennis:
In fact, that's why a lot of customers come to a place like this, where they're not paying for the whole building and all that. They just pay for their little, their square feet and the power they use. Because if you put it in your office, let's say, well the office is designed to keep people comfortable, right? Not servers. The same thing with the power in an office. The power is there to turn lights on and stuff like that, not to dedicate to make sure that the power never shuts off. So in data centers, we've got huge amounts of power redundancy, and cooling and it's redundancy. And that's where people like me come in.
Nick Snyder:
So how much air does it require to keep your guys' servers cool?
VJ:
Well, right now we have 177 ton air, well, water chiller that produces all of our AC to keep it cool. And we keep the data center about 68 degrees, 69 degrees. And we're about... I think we're at a quarter capacity of usage right now. So we have way more than we actually need. But as our infrastructure and our server space grows, it means more heat. So that's why we need the extra HVAC.
Nick Snyder:
You have room for growth at the moment. Nice.
VJ:
Yeah.
Dennis:
Yeah. And then we've got out on the floor, and we'll show some stuff, we've got what are called CRACs, computer room air conditioners, which you have recycled many from another data center that I was at. And those machines can heat the air, reheat it, they can cool the air, they can humidify the air, and they can dehumidify the air. So they do everything, and they filter it. So they do all of that conditioning of them. So when we go look, there's some that are hooked up to the chiller system. So there's chillers outside that produce chilled water, and we bring that water in and we cool the air with that. And then the machine will do the other things that I said. And then there's other ones that have refrigerant systems built into them. And those ones will look identical here. But when we get up on the roof, you may see some of that equipment too. So lots of different infrastructure for them. Lots of stuff to recycle, when those days come.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah. That's why it all comes back to Recycled Idaho. That's why we like to see what the original purpose was. And then we will get it recycled, and then it hopefully it turns into a new one.
Dennis:
Yeah, exactly. And the other thing that's in these facilities with the abundance is all the copper wire. Huge amounts of copper wire.
Nick Snyder:
[inaudible 00:06:27] a lot of power.
Dennis:
And I remember when we originally did the data center that I ran for a while, when we did the original remodel, we pulled out over 10,000 pounds of cat five wire. Just the small... Yeah.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah. Crazy. We were just doing those in four by eights.
Dennis:
Yeah, just nuts.
Nick Snyder:
[crosstalk 00:06:41] was just like over and over and over. And then I don't even remember how much pounds of MCM. Just your heavy [crosstalk 00:06:47]
Dennis:
The heavy gauge, yeah. There was a bunch of that. And what's interesting though, is then we had just as much fiber that we pulled out of that building, and that's what's unfortunate. I couldn't find anywhere to recycle that.
Nick Snyder:
No. And that's something that hopefully going forward as the recycling, in the whole industry, that we find a better recycler for fiber, because we're finding more and more fiber optics in our stream that I'll show the new guy. It's like, "Hey, how much copper is in this?" And they're like, "Oh, 10%? Zero, 0% of copper, quit buying this." But it's becoming a problem. And it's crazy to me that there's not really a good option for it at the moment.
Nick Snyder:
And same with like... We're going to be going to a farm here at the end of this month for our show. And we're going to go to a hops farm. They have plastic tubing. They have a mountain of it.
Dennis:
For all the water.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah, they used to be able to recycle it. And just like all that stuff has been like kind of shut down, because China refuses to recycle a lot of it now. Which is fine, I get it. They want the high grade stuff now. They want your coppers and things like that. They were like, "I'm done taking the world's trash." But it's made the rest of the world really have to look at like, how are we going to process this?
Dennis:
So hops farm. Well, you need to let me know when that happens, because I know how that transitions into beer. That would be great.
Nick Snyder:
We're going to film the end of September [crosstalk 00:08:09] We're going to post it.
VJ:
Perfect for beer fest.
Nick Snyder:
Yep.
VJ:
Love it.
Nick Snyder:
He hit it. Right there.
VJ:
Oktoberfest.
Nick Snyder:
We had a plan on that one.
Dennis:
Nice. Nice. All right, well, we're going to go check it out inside.
Nick Snyder:
Cool. Let's do it.
VJ:
So we have the two authentications to get into the data center, we have the key cards, and then we have the biometric scan to get into it. Because we have customers like Idaho Supreme Court, we have banks in here, we have [inaudible 00:08:31] connect. So we have some bigger guys that they have to, in order for us to be SOC 1 and 2 compliant, we have to have those security measures.
Nick Snyder:
Do have to go through a lot of protocol that stay that compliant? Do you have people come inspecting you?
VJ:
Yeah, and we have to do an audit every four months.
Nick Snyder:
In the recycling world, they call it R2 and R3 Certification to recycle some of that material. And we downstream all of our used crap to those companies, and that's how we're able still to fall under that umbrella, because we say, "Hey, these guys that we're going to give it to are R2 certified, but we aren't." That's quite the process.
VJ:
Yeah.
Dennis:
So this is where the clouds are, huh?
VJ:
Yeah. So this is our cloud. We just started building it two months ago. We have some VMs in the facility that are running backup, and we have some that are doing a failover to our St. George location. So in these racks right here, this is just what we have for our VMs. So we have a few machines up and running, VMs meaning virtual machine, so that those people who are running their infrastructure can do it via remote. They have VPNs into their front end locations so they can run it from their desktop computer. But all their stuff is here in our cloud.
Nick Snyder:
How long do you think these empty ones will stay empty? You plan for them to fill quick? Like how much does each one of these cabinets represent?
VJ:
As a sales rep, I would say I want it full by this time next year. But in reality, probably 18 months.
Nick Snyder:
Okay. So not that long though, really, before this unit's full.
VJ:
Right.
Nick Snyder:
And then what? Do you have to buy...
VJ:
We're going to get additional racks, yeah.
Nick Snyder:
You'll keep building them until you run out of room.
VJ:
Correct.
Nick Snyder:
Okay. Awesome.
Dennis:
Then so you can see the power comes in here. This is where all the power's distributed at it.
VJ:
[inaudible 00:10:19].
Dennis:
And it goes up and feeds down to all of the racks. So lots of recyclable items in that. And then, so the way these guys get cool, because they do generate a lot of power, because we've got air conditioning units like this, a CRAC unit that is providing that condition there. The cold air, it gets dumped down under the floor. And this is a false floor, so there's like at least a one foot, if not two or three foot-
VJ:
It's 18 inches.
Dennis:
So 18 inches at this particular area. But we'll see then some that are three foot. So all that air comes down. It's basically used as ducting. And then this is where the air comes up and out. So you can feel air. And so all of these servers are sucking that air in and blowing it out. So you see her that we've got the floor, you see now.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah, boom.
Dennis:
Moving around. And so all that just gets pulled right up into the unit and out the back.
Nick Snyder:
I see some copper pipe right there.
Dennis:
There's copper right there. Yeah, lots of infrastructure.
Nick Snyder:
And that must just be a magnet? This tool?
Dennis:
This is a suction cup.
Nick Snyder:
It's a suction cup. Okay. So this is a wood top, or like a laminate?
Dennis:
It's like a laminate, and it's concrete filled. And then metal.
Nick Snyder:
I think that's a [inaudible 00:11:31] Yeah, because we've seen these before. These are difficult.
Dennis:
Yeah. So they're heavy.
Nick Snyder:
This is a concrete one. I think the newer ones are the concrete, right?
Dennis:
Yes. Yeah. Older ones are wood.
Nick Snyder:
The wood ones, yeah.
Dennis:
And then you got to think about it. These racks when they're full are just crazy heavy. So you imagine the amount of weight that all of these are holding, and the pounds per square foot, it's rated very, very, very high.
VJ:
Yep.
Dennis:
So then all that heat, everything's designed when you load the racks that the air flow gets pulled in, and then it gets shoved out the back.
VJ:
Correct. So we have a... We call it cool and hot aisles. So on the cool aisle, that's the front of the machines that are sucking the air in, and then the hot aisle is where the hot air is getting blown out, and it goes up into the circulation.
Nick Snyder:
Oh, I see it. So that's on the back end.
VJ:
Because heat rises.
Dennis:
Yep. [crosstalk 00:12:24]
Nick Snyder:
Can I go look at that?
VJ:
Yeah.
Nick Snyder:
The hot... Oh yeah, you can feel it. It's crazy.
VJ:
The temperature difference.
Dennis:
If I knew what a hair dryer felt like, I imagine it's like this.
Nick Snyder:
You had hair at one point.
Dennis:
At one point, yeah.
Nick Snyder:
Okay. I'm going to find those pictures. That's what I want.
Dennis:
All right. So you want to take a look at how these things get cooled off and then...
Nick Snyder:
Yeah. Let's do it.
Dennis:
All right.
Nick Snyder:
Good.
Dennis:
So the difference between the air handler and a CRAC, computer room air conditioner like you'll see around here, is this one uses chilled water. So we've got the chillers outside, they're cooling that water down, and then we pump it through here, and then it comes up and goes through a coil that's cooled with that chilled water. And then there's other units that will have compressors in here and refrigerate systems. But let me just show you real quick.
Dennis:
What's nice, obviously this is what I do, I geek out on this. With these particular units, they make it really easy for the technicians to work on. Very well thought out and able to maintain them, and actually do repairs on them while keeping them running. So you can see all the electrical in here.
Nick Snyder:
[inaudible 00:13:47] Got it.
Dennis:
So main power comes in and everything's fused. But if I lose like some of the reheat, I can turn off that portion of it, get in here and work on it while the system is still moving air and take care of things. So humidifiers, fans. There's one big fan in here and they have variable frequency drives on it so we can keep the power usage low. But right now this guy is cooling. This is the cooling coil that chill water's coming through, and I don't know if he can see the light down there.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah, I can.
Dennis:
But that light is because we have a humidifier that's running. So we're humidifying right now.
Nick Snyder:
And the recycling components, like in our world, we call this aluminum copper radiator, and the way it sits, we call it a triangle rad. And it's got tin sides. And then all, like I'd say almost everything in here is recyclable, which is really cool.
Dennis:
And there's some big copper right here. This is just an insulated copper line. That's full of glycol, it's getting cooled down outside. And then each one of them has a smoke detector. This is sensing the air stream. If there's ever a fire, obviously we're really concerned about anything like that here. So making sure that it's all being monitored.
Nick Snyder:
They really make that pretty easy to disassemble.
Dennis:
Exactly. Easy to get to and work on. Some manufacturers are better than others as far as being able to work on. This one, it's been around forever and they've done a great job of listening to field information coming back to their company and making design changes.
Dennis:
Yeah. So you guys have recycled lots of these, I know, from our old facility.
Dennis:
That's a good question. It's a-
Nick Snyder:
So that's gas suppression.
Dennis:
Say that again.
Nick Snyder:
It's gas suppression.
Dennis:
Yes, gas suppression. I don't remember the chemical, it's...
Nick Snyder:
But it's some... It's like what's in a fire extinguisher, almost? Or no?
VJ:
No, no.
Dennis:
It's like a gas.
VJ:
Yeah.
Dennis:
[crosstalk 00:15:59] go walk inside there and it just disperses all the oxygen, but doesn't leave any residue.
Nick Snyder:
Oh, wow.
Dennis:
It's kind of like a carbon dioxide, but it's a chemical designed for fire suppression.
Nick Snyder:
That way it won't damage your equipment?
VJ:
Correct.
Nick Snyder:
Wow.
Dennis:
Yeah, so you don't dump water all over.
Nick Snyder:
That can't be cheap.
VJ:
No, it's not.
Nick Snyder:
I don't think anything [crosstalk 00:16:17] is cheap.
Dennis:
And these guys over here are pumps that are moving that chilled water that I was talking about. And these are, you can hear them running, these are on VFDs, so they change the speed of the pump. Depending on the demand in the building, it will speed it up or slow it down. And this is how we're cooling a large portion of the floor in there. And we'll take a look at the chillers real quick and go from there.
Nick Snyder:
Great.
Dennis:
So these are the chillers, and again, huge amounts of recyclable material. But this is where the refrigeration portion of it is. So we're using the refrigeration system to cool glycol or liquid, and that's what gets pumped out through.
Nick Snyder:
And does that run through the chiller barrel that's in the middle of this?
Dennis:
Yep. Yep. So there's a big, big chiller barrel right in the middle. So refrigerant on one side of the chiller barrel, and the water on the other side. That refrigerant removes the heat from that water, and then we send it off through. The other thing too, is where that energy gets absorbed into the refrigerant system. And then it comes out to these big coils that you can definitely recycle. A lot of aluminum and a lot of copper. And that's how we reject all the heat out to the atmosphere that's absorbed from inside there on the floor.
Nick Snyder:
So we love recycling these chiller barrels, because nine out of 10 times they're full of copper tubes. I've seen him with steel tubes. I've seen him with a stainless tubes before.
Dennis:
Some older ones.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah, those are old ones. But all newer stuff, all copper tubing.
Dennis:
All copper tubes. A steel shell, but just a big bundle of copper.
Nick Snyder:
And they're not really easy to process, but we've learned the best process from using many different ways. So we know how to break those down pretty quickly now.
Dennis:
Yep. Yeah. There's a lot of weight here. [crosstalk 00:18:08]
Nick Snyder:
Oh yeah, there's so heavy. I mean, you got to get a crane to get them in here.
Dennis:
And then turning around, you can see that here's two of the generators for making sure they don't lose power here.
Nick Snyder:
Oh, okay.
VJ:
Yeah. So what happens is if we lose power, which they'd never have, we have a few machines inside called UPS's, and what those do is a... Excuse me, not UPS's, PUE's. And they like... PDU's, power distributed unit. What those do is if we have a power down, they'll pick up all the power inside so these kick on. And what these do is they hold the power load and make sure the facility continues running. And they're actually ran on diesel. We have a diesel contract where the diesel company will come in, keep refilling it until the electricity gets kicked right back on. So that way-
Nick Snyder:
You have a truck just coming back.
VJ:
Just keeps on coming until power comes back on. So that way all of our customers don't lose power. They don't lose internet. They don't lose any of their stuff.
Nick Snyder:
This is cool you have that infrastructure in place.
VJ:
Yeah.
Nick Snyder:
Not just with the actual building, but like with other people that are going to help.
VJ:
So what that means on our data center side that's means we're redundant. We're redundant in power, we're redundant in backups. And the more redundant you are, the safer the location is to the house your data.
Nick Snyder:
Okay. Makes sense.
Dennis:
And then with those PDU's and the UPS's, those batteries, remember all those batteries that we recycle? Those huge batteries.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah, oh yeah.
Dennis:
Whole bunch of those. Those are in there. Those help hold that load. So when I know power's offline for that short period of time, they design those systems so that, okay, how much load, how much power is being used in that facility? How long do we need to keep it? They design those battery systems around that, to give you time for these guys to come on and supplement that.
VJ:
Correct.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah, and those, in the recycling industry, that's a industrial lead acid battery, is what we call those.
Dennis:
Yeah. They're awesome. They're [inaudible 00:20:02], actually.
Nick Snyder:
Oh, they're good. They're heavy.
Dennis:
All right, now we can climb the roof.
Dennis:
So these are rooftop units. They're called RTU's. They're heating and cooling. There's a whole bunch on the roof here. So like this one here takes care of one of the power rooms. So we don't need the critical conditioned air, as far as humidified or dehumidified, but we need to keep it cool. So all of those power distribution units and the UPS's generate a lot of heat. So we've got a lot of power equipment rooms that we're using these for. And this is a new one. We replaced this one this year. So all of these are getting older, and as they get there, we'll replace them.
Nick Snyder:
How long do they last?
Dennis:
About 20 years. I mean, that's about the age of these guys.
VJ:
Yep. Tonaquint was... Not Tonaquint, Tonaquint Boise, originally known as Fiberpipe was built in 2000. So yeah, 20 years.
Dennis:
Right at 20 years. And the ones for the power rooms, these guys run 24/7, 365. So even in the middle of winter, these guys are running, cooling the place down. We have the... So we recycled, the old one went straight to your place and went through it. So the other thing too is these are lightening rod.
Nick Snyder:
Oh, okay. I was wondering what that was.
Dennis:
Yeah, so if you look around everywhere, around here, it's all because it's the data center. If we have a lightning strike, we want it to go here, not to the facility. So talk about some recyclable copper here.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah, I don't think I've ever really noticed these on a roof before. I'm sure I've been on one more than in there, but this is the first time I've ever really realized what those were.
Dennis:
So there's a lot of, a lot of copper sitting up there.
Nick Snyder:
Oh, yeah.
Dennis:
But then the other cool thing is we've got economizers on these. So like I said, it's got to cool all winter long too, but we got these guys that are called economizers. So it's an automated damper when the outside air is colder than the inside and we can use fresh air-
Nick Snyder:
You can use the air.
Dennis:
These automatically open up and pull the fresh air in, and cool it that way. And then we supplement the mechanical cooling.
Nick Snyder:
Do they have like a residential unit that does that, that has that?
Dennis:
We do.
Nick Snyder:
You do?
Dennis:
Yeah. It's a lot more involved, because a rooftop unit, everything is right here, right? The furnace, the air conditioner, the blower. And it's sitting outside, so we can introduce outside air. At your house, typically your furnace is inside maybe the garage or something like that. And all the air is in there. So for us to get that economizer to bring that air in, there's a lot of work to it.
Nick Snyder:
Got it.
Dennis:
Yeah. But they're getting it simpler and simpler to be able to do.
Nick Snyder:
I've always thought of that. I was like, that'd be cool if... For me, I thought it'd be cool if all my windows were automated where they all like cracked open like four inches. And then I had like a vent that sucked all the air out.
Dennis:
That's called a whole house fan. And we can do that. [crosstalk 00:22:51]
Nick Snyder:
Can you do that? All right, we might have to talk after this.
VJ:
Those are popular and manufactured houses.
Dennis:
Yeah.
Nick Snyder:
Are they? Okay.
Dennis:
The problem with it is, it doesn't know if it's smoky or not out. Or what's going on.
Nick Snyder:
Like right now.
Dennis:
Like right now. So a lot of times, they're opening up because it's cooler out, and flooding the building with outside air and it's smoky. So that's...
Nick Snyder:
Can you turn that off, though?
Dennis:
You can disable it, yeah. But you've got to get up here and take care of if it.
Nick Snyder:
You got to manually do it.
Dennis:
Yep.
Nick Snyder:
Okay.
Dennis:
So over here though, remember I was talking about, we've got some of those computer room units that worked off those chillers that we saw.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah.
Dennis:
And some of them have their own refrigerant systems built into it. And that's what these are doing here. This is a remote condenser. So like when we were looking at that chiller, the big coils on the outside part of that chiller, that's how that rejected its energy from the data center, all of the CRAC units that are downstairs in the data center that have their own refrigerant system, all of that energy is getting absorbed into that refrigerate system. It comes up here, and this is how we dissipate all of that heat to the atmosphere. And these are just huge coils. If you look up underneath, they are just massive coils.
Nick Snyder:
Oh yeah. The whole thing.
Dennis:
Full of refrigerator and copper piping all the way through.
Nick Snyder:
We got eight electric motors running.
Dennis:
So a lot of copper. That's hot, that's discharge.
Nick Snyder:
Okay. Awesome, man.
Nick Snyder:
That's my favorite part of my job, is I get to go to all these different industries and like learn a little bit about all of them. Like how it kind of all works. And my kids, they love that show, How it's Made.
Dennis:
Oh yeah, I do too.
Nick Snyder:
Yeah, me too. And we watch it all the time. I tell them all the time, that's kind of what I do. Like I got to go around, I'm usually going around checking out stuff to figure out how I can help on the recycling plan, on a longterm recycling plan. I've been doing this for 10 years, but I just recently started videotaping it.
Dennis:
Yeah, that's cool. I mean, I dig this because... I mean, obviously data centers and buildings, but the data center with the cooling needs and my industry, I mean, I've been doing it for a long time, there's so many different things that we get to do as a heating and air conditioning contractor, from the refrigerant piping to, we do a lot of electrical, gas piping, sheet metal. We do construction. We get to do a little bit of all of it, and it's just awesome. I love it. You can go place like this-
Nick Snyder:
You're like me. You get to go to all the different industries too, because they all need something.
Dennis:
Exactly. So get to see all kinds of stuff. Cool.
Nick Snyder:
Cool man.
Dennis:
Well, thank you. This is awesome. I really appreciate it.
Nick Snyder:
Thank you. Thank you for taking the time, man.
VJ:
Thanks.
Dennis:
I'd be amiss if I don't say "Hey, if you guys need something for your heating and air conditioning, call Fox Heating and Cooling." Because we'll take care [crosstalk 00:25:51].
Nick Snyder:
Call this guy.
VJ:
If you need any technicians that need places to put servers, call me.
Nick Snyder:
We got them. If you need to scrap, right here.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for listening to another episode of Recycled Idaho. And as we continue the journey across this great state, we look forward to bringing you more stories of people and organizations putting in the work to do the right thing.