welcome to a scrap life a podcast solely focus on the hustlers Grinders operators and business owners who live and breathe the scrap metal industry every day we are the original recyclers no suits required just guts and hard work here is your host Brett eart another episode um you know every time I get to do one of these podcasts it’s always comes via a different way sometimes I meet somebody at a show you know uh in a vent or is event scrap explore or something I’m like hey man we got a lot in common let’s sit down and shoot the and then sometimes times people just get introduced to me like hey you need to talk to this guy or this gal because they got a good story they’re worth talking to um you’d like them so um Jennifer Betts introduced me via kind of text an email to Cliff n with the tonko group and she goes hey you got to talk to him I think you guys will uh hit it off and so here we are I took her advice much like I tell everybody else like there’s some people out

there’s advice worth taking there’s some people out advice that’s worth passing on and uh so I got Cliff to sit down and shoot the with me on uh this episode he’s out in Kentucky um so a little far away from Idaho but thanks for sitting down man thanks for taking the time right before Thanksgiving yeah man thanks for having me on I appreciate it it’s a honor to be on here and uh yeah Jennifer anything she recommends it’s probably a good idea we take that advice she knows her and I think like I you know there there’s so many people out there trying to sell you on something or do something and for me there’s very few people I’ll really listen to and I’m just like yeah whatever like I like doing my own way um I think it’s just probably the entrepreneur like yeah mind at work like I kind of figure like I can figure it out I could do it my own way but then there’s certain people I’m like oh I’ll take your advice but so speaking of Entrepreneurship you know I I didn’t know a lot about um the

tonko group tonko in general and you know you were just kind of filling me in but man I’d love to just kind of let’s let’s speak to the fact that we have two dads that were that were Hustlers right I mean y I mean I think like without going too deep without knowing you super well I feel like you would probably agree that probably the reason that you and I are sitting here with this opportunity today is that we both had dads that were that had a little bit of hustle to them or a lot a bit so yeah 100% let’s hear about let’s kind of hear about how you guys got started um and I think I’ve told enough about my dad over the years but I want to hear about yours I want to hear how tono got started and kind of what you guys are about yeah man um hustle is definitely part of our culture it was something that’s been put in me ever since I was a kid it’s key to us today uh my father started the business in 1969 really just to scr up some money for

college um we’re in the heart of the Coal Field here and tungsten carbide is uh critical to Mining and back then uh recycling wasn’t as sexy as it is today ESG wasn’t even a thing nobody really cared about recycling at all and um he saw an opportunity there to make a little bit of money and ended up finding out that he could make quite a bit of money uh and actually turn that into a business he probably made a little bit too much because he ended up not finishing college and his sophomore year at UK he was like man what am I doing sitting here studying I could be I could be making some money back home yeah and um so he he bailed on UK and came home and built a business from the ground up and um yeah today we uh we’re a group of global companies um we have about seven total divisions um that handle anything from tungsten carbide to highspeed out uh if you look at my Tagan we even have a ammunitions company now and um very very Diversified and uh tell me that what makes up the

seven uh companies so if somebody sees one they’ll know that’s kind of part of your guys’s uh group yeah so um tonko is the parent company and as you referred to it as a tonko group um we have tonko tonko powder uh the powers division does exactly what it says anything that’s whether whether it’s a a scrap swarf or a Tungsten dry powder um the powder division takes care of that we have another group called 74 Alloys uh 74 is the atomic number of tungsten so that’s kind of how we came up uh with that secondary uh Division and really the reason why we came up with that is because you know in the scrap business you have a lot of people that that tend to hone in on a particular category that they want to focus on so you have your less guys you have your copper guys your iron guys and and and from a volume perspective tungsten and highp speeded is really small uh from we’re not talking about train loads of material in fact if we’re talking about tungsten carbide or just tungsten in general uh the global consumption is

only about a 100,000 tons for the year that’s it yeah and that’s that’s that’s worldwide so that’s a pretty small number when you’re talking about some of the numbers that you and stainless nickel and um aluminum stuff like that yeah so so what so what we end up having is in our supply chain people would have these other tungsten bearing Alloys that we weren’t really focused on and um we couldn’t really help them with it because it just wasn’t our cup of tea so in trying to be more supplier um obsessed where we could you know be be a better um we could be a better customer for them really uh we were like all right well let’s run with this let’s let’s start taking a deep dive into it and see if we can help them out help them make a little bit of money and maybe we make a little bit uh along the way and um so we dove into that in 2014 and now uh since then we’ve actually acquired a company in Europe um that specializes in high-speed Steels we actually sell direct into uh the melters

there and uh it’s been a it’s been a really good thing for us I mean we’ve been able to help our supp fers with their supply chain um and we all made a little bit of money um on it as well so so that was that that was really that was really exciting um then we also have like a what we call our finished products division so we’re actually taking the scrap all the way um through the food chain to a finished product so Soup To Nuts all the way um selling that finished product at the are you guys actually then distri Distributing that uh finished product yeah so we we definitely are so we have a company called lineage metallurgical out of Houston Texas and they take care of all of our finished products so like we have we have one particular product we’re actually able to crush uh the tungsten scrap so anybody that’s been in scrap long enough you know you’ve seen some tungsten carbide inserts or rounds stuff like that so we crush it um and it pretty much ends up looking like you remember rock candy when you were

a kid like you go Cracker Barrel somewhere and it’s like rock candy on a stick that’s about what it looks like um and it’s used in wear applications so in again back to Mining and construction uh anything that’s that’s engaged in um in wear um they’ll they’ll coat these steel parts with this tungsten grip and they can they can enhance the life sometimes by like 10 times um and and so that really helps with their downtime but that’s that’s getting in the weeds a little bit so so we have that type of thing but then we also have it where we will recycle the product all the way back to a powder State and in Houston we actually make a Tungsten thermal spray which uh a thermal spray is essentially like a paint gun except it’s through a thermal arc and you can you can coat um just about any type of metal uh with a Tungsten coating it’s used uh heavily in Aerospace um so like landing gears um the the blades on jet engines um anything that’s high heat or high wear but but is very we’re talking about hundreds of thousands

of Tolerance um that’s where that’s where thermal sprays will come in but they probably want to keep it light right so they want the base to be light but they want the wear of something that’s probably usually more dense and heavier correct yeah correct so like when you’re sitting sitting in an airplane you look over and see the airplane beside you and you look at the landing gear and you see the hydraulic in that well like a fork truck hydraulic is is the the the Chrome coating that’s on that is not as um high value as what’s on an airplane because obviously airplanes are carrying passengers the specs on that are are much tighter so you think you’re looking at just a chrome coating when you see a landing gear but you’re actually looking at tungsten um there’s there’s a that’s a Tungsten coding that’s in there because you’re getting that constant repetition and they and the tolerances are like super super tight that’s probably one of the coolest things about our industry that I like that I’ve kind of noticed over the years and talking to different people and and I get kind

of in my own um kind of my own shadow or my own just kind of wheelhouse where I don’t even look outside and and know I mean I’m in the industry right I feel like I’m I’m about as balls deep as anybody and even I there’s certain things that I run across like that right there you just told me I didn’t know that and I feel like I’m fairly knowledgeable about what’s what and who’s who in the zoo you know and that’s something that that you just you know there’s so many applications of stuff that we’re doing on the recycling side that that people are like oh you guys are involved in that yeah yeah we know how that works you know or that’s that’s our product or we we we deal with that product and that’s how that’s made type of deal so that’s super interesting I didn’t I didn’t I did not know that at all it makes sense though I mean 100% because they’re also trying to keep it light right there’s a certain amount of like weight that they’re trying to you know keep um tolerances on so they can

pack more people more bags more and then and still be durable enough to last for for years yep yeah so it’s when it comes to tungsten I mean anything that you think about manufacturing wise yeah um the world looks really really different uh without tungsten carbide uh to be able to uh help facilitate a lot of the proper efficiencies it okay it it’s it’s a real GameChanger so did you grow up in the business Cliff I mean how how did you did you find a love for it during your childhood after do I mean what do you how where is your um evolution in this process where did where did it come from yeah I mean this is pretty much all I’ve ever known um I found a love for entrepreneurship uh very at a very young age so my pops told me when I was 13 he was like Hey you know I assume you want a car whenever you turn 16 I’m like yeah for sure he’s like well I just wanted to give you a heads up that you know if that’s what you want you’re going to have to pay

for it yeah 100% And I’m like okay all right and he was like I I’ll give you the means to make the money but you’re going to do it so basically he kind of got me tracking after this product that he knew he had discovered that wasn’t really being recycled all that much uhuh and he gave me one contact like one that’s it that’s awesome and was like okay go get it you know the rest is the rest is up to you and um so you know I I mean really that’s I mean that’s it that’s he really didn’t give me much else and uh I was actually watching uh the uh dell Jr uh podcast the other day and he was telling the story about how his dad Dell senior never told him anything about racing until he got to cup um and in mind I’m like oh my God that’s my dad like he you know until I actually became an adult and we were like working together that’s the first time I really remember him sitting down and giving me some real advice up until then he was just like making

me dig it out and prove it you know yeah and uh and I you know I don’t know if it was intentional or accidental or what but it I don’t know it seems like it’s working um I’m not I’m not done yet yeah I think and good for him I think there’s so many people in our I mean in our circles or our culture where you know they they they came from not much right and so it’s really difficult I mean I remember growing up and I’ve had these told my kids these stories I’m like man it was a struggle for us right I mean we battled every day and we didn’t have a lot um but we battled every day and so how do you I mean you can’t like fully replace that hunger into your own kids that you had growing up when you didn’t have a lot but you you try and give them lessons right so he can’t he he kind of gave you the forethought of you’re going to want a car you’re gonna have to figure it out I’m going to give you the ability if you can

figure it out and here’s here’s an opportunity and I was just having this conversation at our dinner table I don’t know if you have kids I’ve got a 14-year-old and a 10-year-old both boys and uh my 14-year-old wants a cell phone and you know most people just go buy him a cell phone I said I I’m not buying you I said I’m not buying you a phone because you want a phone so bad I like that that taste of wanting something that bad I want you to figure out whatever you got to do to get that thing right and I think if our ability to teach our kids that that want is a good thing it’s it don’t don’t ever take that want for being bad take that want and then figure out how to turn that into something right so I’m like I go to work every day you’re more than welcome to get in the truck like they got this week off I’m like you can get in the truck with me and we’ll take off we’ll be back you know you can come to work

or you can go to McDonald’s or the dollar store or whatever down the road like you have the option right yeah but if you think I’m gonna just give it to you then I’m doing you a disservice I’m doing you a disservice as a dad I’m doing you disservice down the road you’re going to look back and you’re going to thank me for you may not right now you might be like my friend gets this my friend gets that but as a dad your dad was right man he he hit the nail on the head and I think yeah I don’t know if you have kids but I would assume you probably are going to do the same thing yeah I have an 18-year-old that just started college at Belmont in Nashville uh son and a 13-year-old daughter and um and yeah I mean like you said we I was similar to you we didn’t really have a lot I think you know most of what my dad had at that time was probably tied up in the business yeah um so we didn’t we certainly didn’t live in the

lap of luxury um you know I remember we had he made my mom drive this van forever um like and when I say van this is when Vans were real Vans like you know the big big Captain’s chairs that spin all the way around and but we kept that van long enough we put two engines in it and the big huge ass sliding door like you had to be careful because if you slid it too far back the some would just slide it just slide all the way off and you’d have to pick the whole door up and put it back you know like my kids can’t appreciate that like there’s no way I mean my my daughter gets dropped off in a Bentley each day like there’s no you know and and I tell her on a regular basis I’m like you realize this is not normal yeah like it’s it’s not it’s not normal for that to happen and you know I don’t know I don’t know how we you know teach Val you at at that level um but it it it’s definitely more of an uphill climb for me and

you to be able to put that same kind of hunger in our kids than it was our parents because it’s just it’s just what it’s what we knew you know you’re either going to do this or not you know um their their situation are a little bit different so it’s tougher to replicate that I usually end this conversation this way but like we’re already we’re this deep now so I’m going to get right to the point um I’m curious like while we’re on the kids topic and whatnot is do you have visions of your kids being in the business with you down the road or do you feel like that you’re gonna that you want them to go do something different because I have my own thoughts about this topic but yeah so my son uh says he wants to run the business um he is entrepreneurial um I’ll give him this I offered him the same deal that my dad offered me um and the brother um by the time he bought his car had saved almost 30 grand uh in the bank so um he’s he’s not scared of work um he

he loves he loves making money um I mean he’s took he’s this probably too much information but he had a little nest egg that he wanted to invest and I introduced him to my Investment Group and I said hey I’m not going to get involved with this you know you go do it and he’s took $15,000 and turned it into like almost $40,000 in a year and a half um awesome so you know when I look at that and he says he wants to run the company I’m like I might need give you the keys right now like you know yeah um so back to different type of lessons right like you’re teaching them lessons like you know you didn’t have that opport that that type of you know an investment group or people to you know access to at that age but the lesson is similar right like you can take you know XYZ amount and turn into this if you’re willing to do the work and I think yeah the numbers the zeros might be different but I think the concept and the the lesson is the same right maybe

it’s done it a little differently well you you I think you hit the nail on the head when we started this conversation if we can teach our kids hustle I mean even if we lose everything tomorrow they’re they’re going to come back with something uh because they they understand the the art of hustle um and I think it’s either something you you’ve got or you don’t um and um and I do feel like my son has that now the one thing that I have out for him as I’ve said look you know you and I share the same last name but that’s not a pass like you have to earn your way through the ranks you have to earn you know influence with the team I’m not g to be like hey here’s my son and he’s your new blah blah blah um in finance or Logistics or whatever like you’ve got to create an atmosphere around you where people are like hey if Evan comes in this summer can he work in my my department like that’s the kind of that’s what you need to be creating around yourself and if you hustle

you’ll do that but if you’re the guy that nobody wants you ain’t gonna be the boss one day no what um so and and so I put that in his lap I don’t I don’t try to cultivate that for him um it’s kind of it’s it’s up to him and it sounds like he’s got interest so that’s that’s always you know it’s always kind of refreshing because I was I talked to a bunch of different people and and you know in our situations you know as owners entrepreneurs and you know I get varying you know results right some people are yeah they’re already in they’re going some people are like no I’m they’re out like I don’t you know and I I air I Edge on the side of like I’m kind of indifferent in the fact that I love it right so like for me to sit down do what I do have the conversations like this pick people’s brains and like say hey what do you think about this what do you think about that like I’m in my element right so yeah so but I don’t expect that to be everybody’s

element I don’t expect that to be yours you know as as my son you know you got to go find your thing and if it so happens to be that it’s one of the businesses that we’ve started and built and done great if not I dude I could sell it just as easy as I bought it and built it right probably easier than the then the build and the buy you know probably oh yeah yeah the sell is definitely way easier for sure so I said so I so trust me like and and nothing here that I’ve built or done like this is all that I’ve enjoyed and trust me I’ll watch it go away you don’t don’t feel obligated like it is what it is you know yep so that that’s that’s good so your dad is is not active in the business anymore correct correct yeah he’s he is he he is the chairman of our board okay um but um he’s he’s the guy who he’ll come in once every couple weeks and walk the hallways say hello and then he’s out good there you go there you go yeah yeah

and so uh you and you and he retired I guess other than the chairman side you said what year was that uh he Pro I would say he probably fully retired about five years ago okay um so probably about 2018 right before covid I became president in 2014 and was CEO of about 2016 17 and that’s at that juncture when I became CEO he was pretty much like you know he would come in he still had an office and he’d come in he’d be like hey I’m here if you need me yeah but it just got to the point where he was like Hey I’m not doing anything so I’m not coming in yeah okay so was your dad did he give you I mean I I’ve heard it said before um did he give you like a lot of um freedom to run to do things as you as you wish I mean were you able to kind of bring your ideas to the table and and I guess how much of the expansion is is because you were there and and as a young guy ready to push the envelope and go

hard and how much it was just natural and and uh just kind of part of the where the business needed to go without bragging or whatever I I don’t want you to put you on a spot but I’m just kind of curious like like when did you see your most growth as a company yeah so I took over in 2014 and we doubled uh from 2014 to 2020 okay um but it was kind of like sitting on a powder keg um you know so you know you have to think about the fact that when I took so we celebrated 50 years in 2019 so so when I took over you know we were at about that 42 to 43 year mark but my dad kind of already had one eye on retirement you know so like the way he viewed risk and the way I viewed risk was not the same like I’m just I’m a cage lion like just you know I’m just I’m just I’m pacing like just just get out of my way you know let me go um and once he said hey here’s the keys he got out of

the way like yeah I mean um I tried to run as much as I could by him um there were honestly some things that I knew he would be way too risk ofers on so I’m like I’m gonna uh uh I’m gonna go for forgiveness over permission yeah and um so you know there there was there was certainly a few of those but I can’t I mean there may I’m sure somewhere there in those years there was probably one or two things where we got sideways on that he was like we’re not doing that but I I can’t I I can’t really remember it so you know if you say that hey we it’s a fact that we did double from 14 to 2020 but it was right for the picking you know so it was all all all the hard work had been done um and I’m not saying I’m not belittling anything that the team that I brought in that they did I mean everybody hustled busted their butts and you know really really worked uh to make happen but um but that there was definitely some farming a lot of farming

that had been done a lot of tree planting a lot of tree planting a lot of roots pretty deep down in you know and I tell people all the time like when I started an ‘ 04 we just had our main yard in Caldwell and a you know a little Feeder yard that we don’t have anymore and that’s what we had our pipeyard was in the same spot our Trucking we were all in one one area right and it was a combination of me bringing in people my age you know 23 years old 24 years old 25 and we just as the years grew just all these guys that were just ready to we compete right we we’re competitive all team sports guys like we were just like you said caged animals who were like just every day like let us at it you know and but we didn’t we wouldn’t have had that capability if we didn’t have like the resources over the previous say 30 something years right yeah in place you know the the facility the ability to you know the trucking capacity or whatever that is you could start like

the The Roots down in the dirt to build that are going to Bear the fruit and I think that like it’s it’s hard to people say oh when I came in we doubled well you know are we built you know we got now eight yards and we got this business and we got that and we got this or you’re like but the reason you had the even the ability to do that is the you know the roots were set pretty deep and so you could build on it and the foundation was tight or whatever you however whatever analogy you want to use but that but but it still takes both right it takes the roots and the ground and then it takes that next Generation to show up and show out like show up and do the work and and build it out and I think that’s yeah it takes both if you really want to grow you know yeah yeah another thing you know anybody watching or listening if you know you got kids in the business uh one thing that really helped me probably Excel the fastest was before I actually took

over the entire range of companies we actually went out and started a side business together well that today is our powder division um but what we were able to do was we went out and started that and he he could give me the keys to that without risking the farm yeah and like I was the president of that division starting in 2009 and me and my best friend Ryan sasore we worked on that together but like I had to do he he was like here you go dad was and so that meant you know managing the line of credit you know all the tax implications he was he was hands off uh if I asked for something he would do it so there was a you know you can know the hustle and you can know how to buy and sell and do this and that but when you got to go to the bank and say hey I need this many million in a line of credit and figure out how all those pieces work deal with the attorneys and CPAs that that adds a whole new layer that you don’t really understand

until you sit in the seat um and so that tripa it’s like tripa a baseball or double A baseball before you get to the major leagues like right I mean there’s a certain amount of that you know game time experience that you were acquiring right there 100% so so I did that I started that in 2009 so I had done that for almost five years before he was like Hey you know here’s here’s the group group but one thing that was awesome was my buddy and I that business uh by 2013 so the year before I took over we actually netted as much as the group um through that one so I think that was like okay for for my Pops that was like oh these these kids can do it you know yeah U they can they you know I I can give them what I’ve worked for my entire life and they’re not just going to blow it on Lambos and whatever you know yeah no no that’s that’s a and that’s a great idea that’s a that’s something that I think that hopefully my goal with doing this podcast right is

I love in like meeting people like networking and trying to understand how people built what they’ve built and because I’m always going to get ideas and thoughts and hopefully other people do too right but I’m I’ve been hatching on this idea for a while now so I I WR writing a book right and and the title of the book is uh generational courage over generational wealth because I I’m I’m trying to encourage people to take the risk right I’m trying to encourage people to have the courage to try and because I think that’s where your greatest like amount of growth comes from is you’re just your willingness to try something like not everything that we do I’m sure you can speak to this as well that is going to be successful like I’ve had a few failed businesses right I’d like to think I’ve had more wins than losses you know I’d like to think I’ve done a little you know better than I have worse but it doesn’t mean I haven’t taken my lumps you know y um but if you just have that the the willingness or the courage to try like

you’re going to be so much happier and so much farther in life than everybody else that’s got that’s so scared of their own shadow and yeah I can impart anything on my kids like that’s it you know and I I would assume that’s kind of what your dad you know and my dad did that for me you know he gave me he gave me the the bandwidth within reason we had our Orange County Chopper days where like it was a father son like didn’t quite break the door down but there was some like heated moments for sure right you but you thought about it yeah yeah there was times we thought but there was there was that Dynamic and I’m assuming you know just proba the nature of the Beast for you as well like there’s some head button going on but the end of the day you wanted the same thing you just there was just different ways to get there I feel like you know yeah your dad parted that in you yeah and you you talk about the courage thing like um the gentleman who takes care of our finances our

finance director he and I went to uh a class at Harvard uh back in the spring on uh generational wealth and the perspective from various people on what it means to leave General generational on wealth like I told him like I left that class and I’m like I was disturbed because you know you you leave it and you get this feeling that people like are trying to establish aristocracy you know like I want to make sure my 10th you know my G10 is still uber wealthy like I don’t give a about that like neither do I like what I what I want to know is is G10 G to be at adding to society or you know I don’t care what the lifestyle they get to live and so he and I came back from that we’re like all right well how you know talking about this what’s now normal for for people who live a little bit more affluent life or successful life however you want to measure that so I came back and I told my Pops I said hey look here’s the deal this is what I think for Generations moving

forward we call it uh and I don’t remember who said this in the class so this is not my this is not my line but this is what I’m going with yeah is what we’re going to give the Next Generation what we’re going to promise is a suitcase and an education so I’m going to get you some some balling suitcases for you to travel in because I want you to see the world and I’m going to give you an education and that’s it yeah that’s awesome the rest is the rest is the rest is up to you like why do I need why do I need to give you anything else because if you if you look at Society in general today I mean if you’re willing to to pay for somebody’s education at any school that they can get into and they and they leave school with no debt I mean they’re they’re that in of itself they’re light years ahead of a lot of other Stu you know students so that’s kind of what I’m going with like that’s what I’m telling my kids don’t don’t expect anything else I’m not saying

I won’t give you anything else but I’m telling you don’t expect it you know if you get it it’s going to be a surprise 1,00% I think it’s it’s you’re you’re setting the expectation where it should be and and I I want my kids to want to come home and see me because they love me not because they want something from me right and I want I want that and I was and this is back to my cell phone conversation at the dinner table last night I said Son the reason I want you to buy your phone is then when you when you’re not looking at me me like waiting for me to shut it down waiting for me to do this waiting for me to do that because then you’re going to resent me and I don’t want I want you to wantan to want to come see me right because not because of what I can give you but because we because you built it on your own you built your own foundation and then now you can do whatever you want to do however you want to do it and

right know within legal parameters like you know and as long as your mom says it’s okay then we’re good you know but I feel like that’s how you build you know that to me is worth more than money like yeah like I said I can sell it easier and I can build it you know the build is the fun part you know the sell is what it is but like we’re out here with I’m out here with my best friends every day building like find me a better life you know yeah you and then I come home my wife and I build a house we build yeah what we do you know and I think that’s the thing so my daughter said something the other day she she was referring to something that that that I own and she was like referred to We own and I’m like oh I was like say that again she was like yeah we we and I’m like no no no dad owns you get you get to but let’s be clear that’s Dad’s not yours 1,00 1,00% so back to work so TKO so we’re

2020 um you guys have doubled in size and what was the Big Driver of the double in size obviously we talked about the roots and you guys were sitting on the powder kick but you know what is what what enabled you to push the next level and kind of where were you guys strategically setting up shop um that’s been that’s been you know advantageous for your customer base yeah so probably the biggest play in that was we were already in the early early 2000s selling into Europe but we didn’t have a we didn’t have a European base so what that meant was like our European customers could use us to supplement their supply but we couldn’t be their go to Just because the lag the lead time was too much there’s too much risk on their part for us to be their raw material provider so just to kind of uh unpack just to double click on that real quick basically when we a lot of times we’re out buying uh raw materials in very small quantities like LTL type th000 pounds 5,000 10,000 but we’re only selling in full container loads

yeah so so when our customer receives it in they receive it in as straight raw material feed and tungsten is in the western world is highly intensive um in recycling to the tune most of your major players are looking to go to about a feed rate of 70 to 85% recycled material over primary so so there’s as far as the demand that’s not a problem the demand was there we just couldn’t get them the supply that they needed in a timely fashion so they wouldn’t cons they wouldn’t consider us so we said all right well what if we open shop in Europe we just had the ation with them before we ever took on the risk and they were like hey yeah we love you guys we love your product we love what you do um but you know you have you kind of have to be here so we took took on the risk uh I hired uh Marcus Ecker uh he’s right outside of dorf um he’s got 25 years in the industry um he’s the man I mean he knows tungsten inside and out uh within the European space and um

dude we we hit the ground running and I would say of that growth if you say hey all right well this is the double rate from that 100% I bet probably close to 60% of that came from the European uh space just us picking up that business because right now if you look at my sales as a breakdown I probably do about 55 45 um um domestic versus yeah International okay yeah a minute is that math right yeah that’s right or is that 110 it’s early you’re good you’re good I see where you’re going I see where you’re going that’s right though but but whenever but but whenever we clo you know when whenever we started that we probably only did about 10% if our overall in Europe so the European space has grown tremendously for us um so that’s probably been the biggest and then we’ve just had little diversifications like even our finish products that we touched on at the beginning of the show um we that was just a real small portion of our business and that’s grown to probably 10 to 15% uh now and that’s that’s continuing to grow

it’s just I mean what it is too it’s what it amounts to the way I look at it is you’re just digging down into the value chain farther right when you break off and you’re looking at powders or you’re looking at or you’re dig or you’re moving up to it through the value chain into the consumption or the you know finished products you’re just you’re say the value chain is from here to here right and you’re saying okay we’re we’re kind of here on the recycling side we want to dig a little farther and see where see where there’s more opportunity to gain more material but at the same time I want to look up the food chain value chain see where can I actually get my hands on you know finish process material feed that feed that up and then figure out a way to distribute that so I think it’s any good business in my opinion any good businessman or woman they take what they’ve got and they did not necessarily say Branch out 18 ways sideways but they just look at their chain and they say what more can I bring

to my customer you know that I’m already kind it’s a space I’m in and I how do I kind of take that and and grow my business via maybe another product but it uses you know similar resources or similar locations and I can kind of um go from there it feels like that’s kind of what you guys were doing um but then adding no other country you guys felt confident in what you knew what you what you need to buy you knew what the products need to look like you knew how to sort you knew how to how to find consumers so it it’s more just looking for more looking for more bandwidth opportunity looking for more you know places to buy from yeah 100% And and another thing that we worked really hard on I think this is key for everybody to keep in mind is is to try to never get in Cross Purpose with your customer uh that’s always super important to us so we would try to find out what are our customers needs like what what can we do for more for them to help them uh be more

efficient and that allowed us to grow our business but also facilitate a need for our customer which made us a better supplier so it kind of became a win-win I think a lot of times people look at uh a customer that they deal with and they see a lucrative opportunity and they’re like oh I’m going to I’m going to go after that and we’ve had some suppliers that that have tried that with us and it’s like okay you know if it you know if we’re gonna go to battle I’m I’m game but you know you probably should have we probably should have had this conversation before we ever got there uh because I could have helped you make some money and now we’re just going to fight and as my buddy says I was here before you got here and I’ll be here after you’re gone you know like yeah exactly there’s a reason why we’ve been here for 50 something years years because we’ve seen this Rodeo before right and yeah exactly you know and I’ve seen that seen that side but and when you say cross purpose that’s what you’re referring

to yeah it’s a legal term where you know you’re you’re kind of trying to go in the same direction which causes you to be fighting for the same territory and that’s that’s not really what you want to do like you you don’t want to be having that Clash you want to be like okay how can we how can we go hand inand in this because it doesn’t matter who you are you can be apple Google Tesla whatever nobody takes the market at a 100% so if you already have a great working relationship it’s like find where they find spaces where your customer already wants to grow in and then help them grow that um because nobody that you’re going to come to with a real idea of making money and growing their business together most people aren’t going to be like yeah no I’m not interested yeah yeah they because they’re trying to grow their business the same time you’re trying to grow yours right yeah correct but if you’re the who is like well let me do a plant tour and then I’m gonna go out and try to copy what you do

you know okay you know let’s yeah let’s see how let’s see how that works out you know unless there like and i’ and I’ve done this like if if I’m going to come tour your plant right and I want to see how you things and this like I kind of relate this back to like our tire business because this is kind of what was my mindset I went and toured a few Tire plants and I’m P processing facilities I’m like okay how you doing it so I don’t have to reinvent the wheel the difference between tires and let’s say um tunks and carbide is Tires Only travel you know a couple hundred miles before you wear off any value you know like right don’t get to go in a container across the ocean and nobody’s making good money on that right right it’s it’s regional right yeah it’s very very very Regional it’s very localized and so there’s a there’s a more willingness to share what you’re doing when it’s a very localized product right now if you have a product of high value you know um of you know let’s say little volume

high value you know it can pretty much go about anywhere you know even on LTL and still and still make money but yeah you know I think there’s a there’s a there’s a collaboration that can happen where you’re not affecting your market right but if I show you what I’m doing and you come and set up shop next door to me we’re not a problem right like yeah 100% problem right but I’m willing to show I’m willing to say hey I want you to you know be better but I’m I’m also more I’m more interested in how do I make my customer better and yeah and like to your point that’s exactly you know how we decided on the tires was what’s our customer doing oh they’re generating tires you know they’re a truck shop they’re are this they’re are that and they’re they have another need we could fill that need at the same time we still want to buy their scrap right yeah I feel like that’s a very similar concept to what you guys have done um in the in the tungsten um Circle right yeah found more needs that your

customer is looking for and found a way to fulfill them and then in turn makes your relationship stronger yeah yeah because you’re you’re able to help them be more profitable you’re able to help them you know be more sustainable and what they’re doing so it it becomes a win-win and you just deepen that relationship for sure gotcha so I mean if you had to hang your hat on anything is that why people should I mean do business with tonko over somebody else is that that is that the thing yeah I I mean I would say relationship the very very top of why people uh continue to do business with tungko um I mean one of our main core values is being customer and supplier obsessed um and that’s you know that’s at the heart of everything we do I mean we’re we’re not the we’re not the trader who is is chasing a nickel like that’s not our game like we’re we’re in this for the Long Haul partnership and you know it took us a long time to convince our customers of that because our customers were so used to you know

this Trader mentality that okay you know I’m going to be the guy that’s I’m going to call three people and then I’m just going to go with the straight highest bidder like we had we had to get our customer base it took us years for them to to believe that you know when they say hey I want five truckloads of this and they give us a forecast for three four five six months and we go ahead and agree on a price that we’re not going to we’re not going to back up on that and we’re going to stick to it even if that means we lose money sometimes um but what that means is is again our customer understands that we’re going to be there for them um and I’m not just trying to to create an inflated price to get an extra nickel or whatever I’m more interested in the relationship the long the longterm part of that and we also try to reciprocate that on the supplier side you know suppliers never want to hear you say hey we’re not buying right now we don’t need anything you know that’s like they

never want to hear that and my Supply team my procurement team never wants the CEO to say hey we we got to we got to chill for just a little bit here yeah so we try to always Steward our inventory to where we don’t have to do that so it’s not we don’t want to be the partner that’s like on the gas off the gas on the gas off the gas like yeah we want to want to be that reliable partner um we don’t always hit that um like right now things are a little bit slow so our supply chain would probably like us to be buying a little bit more than what we’re buying but uh from a Global Perspective right now if you’re in raw materials uh pretty much everybody’s got a little bit higher inventory than what they need to have and it’s just the global Dynamic that we’re in and a uh post V recovery type global economy I mean there’s just just no way around that so so yeah to to land the plane there I would say relationships are are probably what gets us the furthest and going

back to you know kind of how we started the podcast was that’s that 50 something years of doing business right you not in business for 50 what are you guys at 53 years now 54 years you’re not in business for 54 years because you you you forgot about the relationship part or you forgot about you know like why do the why does going 65 get you the best fuel mileage versus going 100 and then going 40 and then going 100 and then going 40 and generally how do you get farther in life because you just went 65 and you took the good the bad sometimes you pass people sometimes they pass you but at the end of the day like you still beat him to the to the spot because you were able to go 65 right and I think that’s being in business for 50 something years that’s being family-owned that’s being you know and and I think when you look people are starting to become more aware of the Traders right and I think that there’s a there’s a there’s a Trader mentality out there that it’s hard for me to

get my mind wrapped around because I’m I sell all of our scrap right that’s just the nature of the Beast I always have for a long time and so I’m dealing with people every day on the sales side and yeah I try and do business a with people I like but B people that I think are going to be around a long time because I anticipate you know we’re 52 years now um I anticipate being around a long time right so yeah I want someone to consume my scrap they know what I make they know the you know our quality I want them to be around and I think that people are starting to they’re starting to figure that out there was there was a period of time when trading was just you know that last penny that last nickel and people got hung and they’ll continue to get hung on on scrap and on on and it’s that consistency that wins in the long run I truly believe yeah I agree I agree 100% like you don’t forget when a guy Burns you over you know a couple pennies I mean if somebody’s

out bidding me by a good percentage you know you should go you know your guy’s not doing his job if he goes with me and I get out bid by percentage points yeah but but when you’re calling every time Dick and Harry just trying to run the price on me we ain’t gonna forget that you know we’re not gonna forget that you know yeah well man any any words of wisdom you want to impart on anybody listening before uh before we take off I don’t know if I’ve got any words of wisdom but I don’t know when this will drop but it’s Thanksgiving tomorrow so uh I think the main thing is no matter what just always remember to be grateful and thankful love people and uh don’t be an absolutely keep the main thing the main thing I heard one said one time and I feel like that’s a good way at this time of year to remember why you’re why we’re why we’re out here doing what we’re doing yep and thanks for the opportunity man it’s been fun thanks for sitting down and I I do appreciate it appreciate your time