welcome to bets on the future where we highlight the various career paths and the electrifying Metals World from the vehicle you ride in to the bridge holding it up metals are everywhere why not in your career too I’m Jennifer Betts a Metals industry veteran with almost 20 years experience here to highlight these incredible career paths As Told by the women who are living them this week on BET on the future we are joined By Zoe Epson the director of fact Freight and commodity Talent limited she is an experienced executive within the global Transportation World from derivatives broker to head of desk specifically tanker Freight derivatives like fuel oil and LBG FFA her career has spanned into two decades in recent years she broke out of trading Freight moved into recruitment swiftly becoming the market leader in shipping and commodities Talent Solutions and if you weren’t aware the medals world is in need of transportation to move those raw materials and finish products around the globe please welcome Zoe Upson based out of Essex England in the United Kingdom Zoe I just want to say thank you for for staying up a little bit later

uh for those that are having me you’re welcome uh we’ve recently gotten connected and um you’re not exactly a neighbor you are across the pond so truly appreciate the time zone difference for those that are listening uh feel free to just give a quick introduction for yourself yes okay so my name is Zoe Upson I’m the director of freight and commodity Talent we’re a headhunting service we specialize in the shipping and commodity sector so shipping primarily everything that’s very commercial SO trading broking and then any commodity stick owes it onto a vessels which would include metal and also the ship’s life cycle scrap yes um so yes that’s that’s me and I’m also the founder of women together which is just a network which grew really organically um for women again in shipping and commodities uh women who are broken trading very male dominated spaces just to sort of unite and network and Empower one another that’s incredible how did you get into this industry I mean you just alluded to it being male dominated so it’s probably not exactly wasn’t initially on your radar yes I didn’t grow up thinking I’m gonna be

working in shipping and commodities certainly not I always knew that I wanted to work in a business environment being quite money hungry at young age um so I fell into the industry really and truly um I just got any job out of University and ironically got a job at a shipping recruiter I placed someone a great investor Services um they actually do have a metal broken desks um but I actually you know placed someone there and he said look get this girl while she’s young she’ll make a really good broker and train her up so the next minute I know I get a phone call do you want to become a broker so I’m like yeah yeah like that’d be amazing like I’m so excited like never thought you know me this girl from Essex you know get these sort of opportunities but went along and my interview was hilarious it was basically what do you know about shipping to which I could probably list a few vessels at that point and and that was that and I said oh you know you’re gonna have to be thick-skinned if you’re going to be

working in in broking and I said well I had two older brothers I think I can handle myself and then I’m gonna not swear but this was quite a genuine interview they said what are you gonna do upon the Brokers tells you to oh this is genuinely true right and I said well just tell him to talk back and they literally went great how much money do you want and that was literally it I think I was in there for 15 minutes tops had a job went straight onto the broken floor on freak derivatives and they said um you’ve literally got three weeks to learn this or not whoa that was it and then yeah really at that point well in that three weeks turned into how many years at this point right like a decade yeah had a slight Gap in between where I had a daughter and got married um but then came back uh broken that point tanker for derivatives and that was just that yeah I did that for some time uh before setting up my head hunting business when people think of metals you know they think about probably

maybe the production of it they don’t think about the fact that it’s produced in some locations and that it has to be shipped like many other Commodities around the world right yes oh yeah yeah yeah it it’s got to be interesting to see where your business has has moved materials yeah yeah so that’s like another reason why I just love reshipping so much it’s obviously it’s a tangible Market historically I’m on the derivative side so less physical you know actual moving but obviously you’re very integrated in that but you know when it comes to Metals well that’s what builds the ship uh 90 of anything is once been on a ship be it a car Metals iron or coconut oil grade oil right across the barrel you’ve got LNG vessels obviously everything goes on a ship and then once a ship has its Heyday uh and it goes to scrap right and obviously scrap huge huge Market uh one I personally really love um when you work in my business you Industries have their own little personality so you know once I started head hunting in in different commodity sectors and that’s how I

got into metals scrap people I loved like just any candle I spoke to was an absolute Joy um clients Joy I think it’s maybe not such a glamorous sector Maybe you know in terms of scrap or whatever I don’t know but there’s just no Mayors and Graces just phenomenal candidates phenomenal people and such a again markets you don’t think about you know what I mean like growing up you don’t think about going into scrap you know or metal then incredible market right it it is and I’m chuckling because I’m biased right I come from the scrap side of things and very similar to your story I had no idea it existed before this and actually the person that introduced us comes from the scrap or as we now call it recycled materials industry and so it’s fascinating and I completely agree with you it is a a slightly different world than say the finished product side of the business right maybe even the logistics side of the business but it’s been really fun really fun getting to these individuals over the years and great personalities right someone didn’t have to connect you and I

but us being similar people you know as we’ve discovered one thing to make changes diversity you know that that kind of kindness you don’t see in often in many of these spaces but you know I went in I’ve only been in scrap since I’ve studied working on a particular roles so only in the last couple of years but I would say I’ve got some real friends for life and I and that’s a lot too sorry the recycled material like I just call it scrap we need to be but um yeah fantastic Market it’s hard for me don’t worry it’s been scrapped my whole career and so to say recycled materials I I understand the the story behind it I understand it’s it’s from a marketing perspective but it’s it’s real hard it I mean it’s it’s been scrapped to me for for so long yeah when when you’re looking at people to place what are some of the characteristics that you’re looking for what are some of the the trends that you’re seeing the the types of individuals that do really well in our industry yeah okay um so obviously that really depends on

on the clients um and what they’re looking for often I would say again scrap loyalty is very strong very strong characteristic characteristic um you’ve got some companies which are I think um highly desirable because they have such good graduate uh programs in place so sometimes people go oh we’d like them if they’ve come from this particular company I don’t know if I should say names or not because they have such phenomenal graduate and they train them so well you know let them do the hard work we’ll pluck them um but then generally across markets particularly if you’ve got someone I don’t know which I handle more commercial size to the trading side knowledgeable knows that stuff about the market and the industry tenacious and hard working and just good energy and more interest interestingly which has been really refreshing and you’ll like to hear this um some companies that I’m working for now really want to see more women coming in so when they’re hiring a senior Trader they like me to work out whether I feel that they would be inclusive and supportive of the values because sometimes in any industry it’s not

per Metals but Traders and Brokers can be quite for themselves um and sometimes the diversity is a threat not as a um as what it is which is is a strength um to have different skill sets up amongst the ranks um so which it’s been quite refreshing is we need to make change here so we need those with positions of power or seniority or ones who are going to be in management we need to make sure that they are able to nurture let’s say if a woman came onto the desk or someone from another you know someone of more diverse background and that’s actually been quite refreshing to see um but again they wouldn’t know they’re a good Trader they can make money hard work it like the classic things you look for but that was quite refreshing um to work with and that’s where I get approached quite often um is when people want to have more women coming forward because not I work as a Talent Solutions partner so I won’t just go and you know go and get females or and bring them in per se if that’s what they they

needed support in I also helped them as they’ve right how’s the company culture have you looked at this what’s your maternity packages like because it’s one thing hiring and then it’s another thing retaining um and I don’t like to spam hires you know Place someone pull them out two years later I’m like no we’re placing people for the next five ten years of their life so we need to make sure and if you want to make changes I have a good understanding of of what I think women have previously um suffered with so I’m gonna have a lot of girls come to me for advice so and being in the market myself and you would know this there are difficulties we come up against um so I have a good understanding of that but then I also have quite a good understanding of where I think we need to make changes and one of those is that hiring Talent who can lead and support diversity um because you know when you’re highly senior in a business you’re not there always time on the floor handing this stuff so you need to make sure the

people that you have got there and people coming in um running line with your company culture and values it really hits home for me I you’re discussing talking about the trading floors about it being male dominated and then discussing the culture to keep women in those environments and I’ve been there and I also don’t want those companies anymore right so it is really refreshing like you said to hear and see companies taking a look at this seriously because we are half and actually more than half of the workforce we make up over 60 of The Graduate degrees from Universities at this point and so for the Next Generation for the future of our industry and for a lot of manufacturing just in general women are going to be playing a key pivotal massive in the future yeah yeah and a lot of investors are now turning people’s arms and saying this is what we want particular boardroom that change is happening so like you say you know the graduates coming through is one thing but this change is it’s gonna happen it’s a bit like you know the world wanted to come green you

know we’ve seen shipping start off IMO 2020 now they have to do carbon emissions we’re seeing a big change but that that’s being forced um laws have come into place we don’t have laws saying you need to hire x amount women per year that won’t happen but I think the senior voices are going to calm down and I often have conversations with my clients and I’m like get your female Talent now because in a few years time you’re all going to be scrapping sorry the term but you’re all going to be wrestling around for the top female talent and they’re gonna people who experience and good and suddenly you need someone with that experience and you also ideally are looking for a woman I know you can’t speak just be careful what you say but ultimately you’re going to be paying through the nose so you want to get the graduates in coming through training and nurturing them effectively so they want to stay with you they’re not get described so many girls are so disgruntled like I can’t tell you and it’s such simple things you can do to make them stay and

be satisfied um and and the other thing is is like look now to build out your Workforce because once this really gets caught and everyone starts really pushing for it you know P you know be smart be like two steps ahead here because like you say this is gonna happen it is Chief which is a professional women’s executive Network put out a study that said 30 of all incoming CEOs across all Industries not just the metals industry are female which fantastic it’s the highest that it’s ever been but I was kind of curious could I find information on well what is it in the metals industry um s p did a s p Global did a study on the CEOs or the c-suites and in the metals worlds I believe from a Global Perspective it was like 11 12 and here in the states it was basically 10 right so significantly lower than the average of the incoming CEOs and representation matters it absolutely matters in terms of a recruitment standpoint so if you’re looking to recruit a more diverse Workforce that needs to be reflected in your management team and I’m not

suggesting diversity for diversity’s sake there is a business case to diversity practices I keep on my phone at all times it’s a saved bookmark McKenzie does an ant report on the financial benefits to companies that have eni statements and policies that are actually enacted and yeah I can share it you can find it on my LinkedIn but essentially companies that have either a gender diverse management team or an ethnically diverse management team do significantly better in business yes financially of course with a more diverse Workforce diversity is strength I always say it it’s 100 true and it’s like proof is in the pudding and what we also afraid of um you know I think there are lots of things to do but interestingly I befriended uh the ex uh Talent um I don’t know what his job title was but he was in charge of all the grad schemes and getting talent in on the largest trading houses in the world they have so many women in senior positions they have like all of them have been there for decades right so not only have they got them in but they’ve um maintained retained

them um and I said to him like what is it because I want to know like that’s why I contacted him I said you’ve got so many incredible inspiring women all working for you um and so their method was in The Graduate schemes they take in 60 40 so 60 female 40 boys wow all of the graduates then go on to different they said eight months in different areas back office front office middle office and they find what they’re passionate about and what they like it’s like do you go on the commercial side of things going into trading they get exposure early on and then they make sure which I think a lot of time um on trading flaws women for some reason don’t have the same natural confidence that boys do I think me and you joked about this the other day that a girl won’t apply for a job unless it’s got every single she’s got everything on the tick list whereas a guy will just go for it but I think there really is still confidence in in the young Traders they pay them very well um phenomenal maternity that’s another

big thing that I think a lot of um companies I mean in the states I think it’s quite bad compared to Europe yeah we’re the worst when it comes to uh the most industrialized nations we are we Trail the bottom yes well we work with a company now um we say if you want to be more appealing women it’s six months fully paid wow um and that’s the way it’s going and we’re seeing actually for the first time a shipping company I work with they’ve really got the formula right um the girl there they put a girl in a position of power head of desk she’s been like I want to make change the bosses have supported her fully now I’ve got girls looking at my door going can I get in but I can’t get you know the graduates any more graduates in there um but their maternity package is six months fully paid and three months half paid and then you go on to the government standard that um anyone would get in the UK wow um and that’s going to be a big big like again because not many people for

such fantastic maternity leave if you’re a woman you know you’re going to be looking at these things particularly if you haven’t had children yet or you’re planning to at some point in your life what a great pull like if you want to get the top talent let’s let’s be real here yeah I mean even in the states like that would be such a good thing you know um and plus having the understanding of the flexibility you know like luckily when I was broken and I had a daughter oh I still have her but like I was broken and being a mum and up in the city you know my nanny was absolutely like so reliable but thank God she was because I don’t even want to think about the pressure that would have been put on me if I had to go because she was in nursery and she just like Viva I couldn’t get in today because she wasn’t well um it would have been awful I’m not honestly and that’s that’s a sad thing to say so this company as well they’ve made sure that their policy is very much we wouldn’t

understand as a parent you need that flexibility sometimes and they’ve also put that into their culture which I think is fantastic that flexibility that support system buys loyalty if you want the best individuals working for your company you’re going to have to offer not only maternity but also paternity leave as well yeah I was at an event recently and I believe we’ve talked about this not on this podcast but you know off off uh off the Record but I was at a conference recently and I gave a speech and um one of the women came up to me afterwards and she had had a conversation with another woman who was debating whether or not she should stay in the metals industry and I had to ask why like what was she considering and this conversation that she had with another woman basically was well I don’t see any moms I don’t see any working moms in the industry and it kind of blew my mind and the woman that I was speaking when I said that she said oh the woman that was speaking she’s a mother of two like she she has you

know younger children and it kind of dawned on me that we don’t talk about that aspect at least not in the metals industry that often and I I’m in the United States so I don’t have great maternity benefits from from the government really non-existent and so I’ve had to rely on uh corporations or companies and actually crazy enough each time that I had each of our kids I was self-employed I had my own businesses and so um this is probably terrible to share but I worked through basically out of Hospital back feet propped up laptop you know in hand like three days later not super healthy but I did have a really wonderful client base and at that time I was able to be pretty flexible um but without that kind of talent we’re competing against technology we’re competing against the medical Industries these industries that have incredible benefits to their employees and they’re getting top talent yeah so if we want that we need to start offering that exactly and Jennifer you know you just sit there that really stuck out to me um that you know I I luckily had

really good clients this is something like no client cares about your mum they like they care about their relationship they care about the service they care about the standards their loyalty and if you have a good relationship with someone I’m sorry but I’ve actually experienced this throughout no one has ever ever worried about me and my daughter or if I’ve had to make a call and she’s been you know had to sit next to me with the iPad or she’s you know just been in the same room and I said look oh by the way just so you know my daughter is here you know um if she interrupts or anything you know just to give you a heads up and then no problem I to a business trip to Dubai loads of people can say oh my God right that’s so impressional but Dubai is a very expat a lot of my clients have children and the clients I’ve seen have had relationship for a very long time and she’s loved with one of the biggest ship owners in the world and the thing is what’s quite interesting is that when you actually

become self-employed and you haven’t got someone’s telling you it’s unprofessional to have children around the business and yes it’s not ideal right because you don’t want the distraction but give and take no one really cares and I’m not saying we need to bring our children to work I’m not saying they should be in a workplace because that’s not great for kids and that’s not great for you and quite frankly it’s quite nice to have a little break but you know but why companies if the client doesn’t care which we you and I both know actually they don’t you know become why companies not adopting this a little bit you know just a little bit of you know well you need to go and work from home today you know whatever fine just have that flexibility because I think it’s more important and actually I think I’ve got valued so much more when I became mother in the market than I ever did before and when I came to work I still worked very long hours but I worked very uh even more efficiently than ever before because I kind of wanted to get

home you know um and and I think I just you know a lot of my clients had children of their own so there was a bit more you know we could discuss things talk about you know how the kids and you know those things I didn’t really understand before being a young girl broke up so I think it’s a really positive thing and I think it’s something that is what prevents so many girls coming in is they go oh but once I get to that point if I become a mom it’s there’s a no-go right then my career is you know what am I going to do there and that’s what we kind of need to change because if we want to get the women in the boardrooms there’s gonna when we get past that point because we need them to come through the company then they get to probably an age where they would like to have children so they go and have children we need them to come back because we need them in the boardroom so you it’s something that that needs to change I think a lot which I

think the answer to that is having role model mothers in companies and seeing that celebrated and enjoyed and and working on both ways so you see why they’re getting promoted and she’s working hard and and she’s due for promotion not because she’s a mother but because she’s worked hard for it good maternity packages paternity packages but honestly think you know like I I don’t know about me but are you you know it’s if if you got free paid for six months you know you could go away and come back you’d probably be quite Keen to get back to work to get yourself back I think a lot of women who are ambitious and want careers and their dream isn’t you know my dream is to do both it’s not to be at their home you know um with my daughter I want to work but also be a mother yeah back after six months it’s quite nice you know to get yourself back start getting some normality routine it’s great for baby as well like my personal belief um and I think women have a new why so you know all of a sudden

I worked hard you know I’ve done the best I’ve ever done when I had a daughter because oh I have someone to look after now and someone to be a role model for and you know like I I think there’s so much good in there but just companies need to just change their mindset a little bit and surrender to the new normal and go for it and I think like you’re like you say the Stats come out every year they do and the U.S Department of Labor came out with a stat recently that essentially households that have children 18 and under at home 70 are dual income so 70 of all of the parents that have 18 year olds and Below work work so this concept of oh when a woman decides that she’s going to want to have children that she’s going to drop out of the workforce it’s just not true anymore it’s the majority of the women are staying in the workforce and there’s a variety of reasons for that but I like to look at more of the positive ones in the United States where we want to work

I’ve yes had managers tell me early on my career when you get married things will change you’ll want to stay home and that stuck with me like it was I know I know I’m getting real candid here so you know it is what it is but that’s not me I knew that at that point that it’s not me that was not the best fit for me in that environment either and so yeah I’m glad that I did not stay around and also to your point the best work that I’ve done thus far in my career has been after I’ve had children yeah period right yeah and I have a lot of women who would say that to you know a lot of working mothers and also you know some women don’t obviously want to have a children that’s great but they also need different working environments um that will support them as well and just to see more come in and pertained you know not just because sometimes I see girls leave a specter they’ve just it’s nothing to do with being a child having children or being a mother they’re just tired they’re

tired of the same old working twice as hard twice as smart I can’t even so when I set up my own business I was free to speak freely on LinkedIn and I’ve done a lot for women and speaking out and the women that have messaged me around the world like thanks for being a voice and then you know and then we share stories a little bit and it’s just like some of the stories I hear even now I’m like come on it’s 2023 the world’s going this way your business is gonna perform better you know let’s let’s get this diversity thing really you know going and and really embracing it and let’s not have our arms Twisted because we have to do you know it becomes gender washing because ultimately you want the best color you know we just want to hire because the you know the industry everyone’s hiring people oh gorgeous get us you know some ethnical and diverse backgrounds and no like you’re top down and like take the time to do it now and change your practices because you will learn the best people if you get that right because

so many times I will speak to candidates and a lot of the time you know money is important and and yeah you know sometimes they can relocation or they want better accounts or they want you know maybe to have a you know a step up in seniority but I would say a mass majority of people is their daily satisfaction at work you know are they happy or not um because just and feeling valued whether that’s reflected in a bonus or like I say not getting the seniority positions or or getting more accounts that they want to have but they’re not allowed to they’re being blocked somewhere else that’s where people really sort of um want to move sometimes seems to be the biggest driver it’s you know I feel I’m valued here and I’m being shown otherwise um and a lot a lot of goals come to me and I am just still like this is happening when I was a young girl 10 years ago being held back you know she’ll say come on it is some changes it is really frustrating to hear some of those similar stories that that I’ve experienced

that I’ve also you know heard at the beginning of my career and it’s frustrating and recently I saw the lineup for a major Metals conference and was extremely disappointed in the lineup from A diversity standpoint yeah it was essentially a subtle way of saying we haven’t changed yet and that is going to affect generations of talents coming and staying in our industry if we don’t start pushing and expanding who’s who’s out there who’s who’s more prominent in the industry because there are a decent amount of women in this industry they’re they’re just not getting the same amount of air time Yeah a hundred percent and I get so frustrated because come International women’s day I get so many messages and come speak on this panel come and speak on this panel and I’m like will you just won this for international women’s day and all these companies do all this big thing I like this one day yeah there’s so many conferences across the year I don’t get an invite to speak right but come to women’s day every my phone’s going up left right and center and I’m getting double booked for panels

and God knows what because they they want to do a women’s one so they go to the top women in in the industry or quite vocal and stuff and all of a sudden you know there’s a demand but that is one thing for me I go to a conference and I always say and I see a sea of male heads like you know like just literally when you look out I just see male head everywhere there’s the odd dotted female and then you sit down for a panel and I’m like oh yes yes which then come on like it’s not hard no and it’s not and I will share um very candidly um a situation that happened last year there was a conference that I noticed the panels were not very diverse right and I’m not even talking about like 50 50. like just give me like 10 to 20 of the female of the speakers being being female up there and so it was a really interesting reaction so I approached the conference and I you know expressed my concerns and the reaction was wonderful the head of the conference essentially said oh

my gosh I didn’t really realize this these are just the individuals that are in my network that I know are comfortable speaking because obviously it’s not for everyone and he was very open and said do you have any names I would be more than happy to take a look at a list of names to see who that’s great yeah or would be a good addition to to um the conference and sure enough within like two weeks of the conference starting there was an addition of several speakers to um many of the the panels on there and these were incredibly educated um well-connected big in their fields women and it was wonderful to see and I’m going to that conference again this year and it’s it’s it just it’s only growing it’s only getting better and so just by speaking up that one time and having that positive reaction from the head there and I’m like it’s okay it’s it’s changing like it maybe it is most people can you say to them do you want this change do you want to have it like it says yes they’re not it’s just everyone’s happy

to say yes but not everyone’s happy to actually you know okay let’s let’s go to work on this because it’s one thing to to voice something it’s another thing to action it and actually actioning it often is not difficult but it requires effort and energy you know like you’ve got to dig a Little Deeper to buy the women you will get a list from someone you’ve got to approach them probably talk them up a little bit they’re not used to doing it or not done it before um but again another thing as well I think is a big thing is just instilling confidence in in the women coming through like and and supporting with that because and again like some people I think are so um blind sometimes you know I’m like if you’ve got someone and you’ve got some you know young people coming through boys and girls and then I teach them how to speak on a panel to publicly speak because then when there’s a conference and then you’ve got all these people sitting there they’re looking up they can see your company name it’s marketing like it’s huge sorry and

I was so scared to speak and I’m like okay but it’s a fantastic opportunity particularly with companies you know you’ve got some young diverse Talent you’ll complete get them trained up young get someone to come in to teach them how to speak on a panel to speak correctly with Clarity to to maybe have some debate um you know it’s just little things you could do free marketing right yeah it’s one of the best ways to Market yourself is to getting on a panel getting into the conference uh world and it only helps you and your company you you had it on on nail on the head so head on the nail What’s the phrase no in the head yeah we’ll get there I still haven’t finished my coffee this morning so you you had some great advice for once you’re in the industry and helping out your company and end yourself with the panels but for those that are looking to get into this industry what what’s the best advice that you could give to them it depends maybe a little bit on age so if they are looking maybe pre-college do you

call it we call it University maybe looking at a degree that would support you know economics or some Commodities or with this little shipping degrees and things that I suggest young people go to because there’s actually not that many people these qualifications but maybe something that supports you on that pick up the phone please like I I say this all the time so we’re young people now stick behind a keyboard right because it feels safe that they’re behind their phones and whatever but go to a conference pick up the phone go Network you know if someone called me up and said give me three weeks I’ll come work for you for free let me show you how talented I am and how hungry I am or how much I’m going to work for you I would give them a shot and a lot of people I know like that now you know they’re just like look I want to get into the sector if maybe you’re slightly um more senior in in your career but you you have a certain skill set to step over again like just networking reaching out to the right

people conferences and picking up the phone like if you haven’t gone the educational route you know I think that’s maybe the way to come and join the women’s Network women in metals uh women together women should be blue I’ve got so many women who are black women all day long you know I had a young girl come to event once and she said oh I just I watched like with you on YouTube I was on a YouTube video about someone how to be a broker and she was like oh we want to get involved and I said well when did you graduate and she’s not graduating until next year but I said right come look at in the network start networking with these women Because by the time you graduate you might have a someone and they have the opportunity and that’s it so I think we need to go a little bit old school in in that respect um and and stop being a bit more proactive again um and not just hiding behind skating just pick up the phone I honestly believe that it might be a bit scary you might get

a lot of rejection but like whatever like I think that’s a really positive thing to do well on that note even though I am suggesting a screen here I have had individuals reach out to me via LinkedIn um once they’ve seen either some of my books or videos along those lines so if somebody wanted to get a hold of you you know talk to you for a little bit say that you know you know they’re they’re ready to hustle for three weeks for you how would somebody do I think link tens probably my best shell I do get quite a lot of um messages often coming in particularly I’ve just posted something but often my assistant will go through and just make sure we’ve not left anyone out and then yeah just have a chat I’m always happy you know when I get a moment but even if it’s 10 minutes or 30 minutes just to have a chat if I’m really serious about getting in and and what to do and maybe like educational moves and things like that yeah anytime yeah well uh and speaking of time thank you so much we

went a little bit longer than originally planned but I I am sorry there’s a saying I could that we say oh if she could talk for England I literally I could talk thing and I don’t know hey that makes my job on this end way easier and it’s been such a pleasure talking to you to know you so much uh find Zoe Upson on LinkedIn uh yes and and uh you know keep considering metals and uh in in the future yeah definitely